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Forum:The Cargo Cult
A "cargo cult" is when a phenomenon in which indigenous peoples who had been visited by missionaries or ships from modern society would build mock airplanes out of branches and leaves, in the hopes of attracting the visitors back. This was done with almost religious veneration, but it was largely because they wanted material benefits - visitors would gift them gifts such as canned food, etc. Similarly, any who have read Arthur C. Clarke's 2010: Odyssey Two will note that the primitive indigenous Europans started building piles of junk metal from crashed probes, speculated to be a form of cargo cult practice. Around late Season 2, writer and "loremaster" on the TV series Bryan Cogman shut down his Twitter account.WinterIsComing.net, May 22nd, 2012 As Cogman explained, he was just getting inundated with questions about Game of Thrones, or simple harassment from internet trolls complaining about minor changes. Two basic principles are in effect. First, there is no way that the writers could ever hope to field fan questions from an unfiltered source such as Twitter, without running into internet trolls and harassers. Something cast and crew in TV and film often have trouble recognizing is that this is an utterly small fraction of the fanbase: if you get 10,000 pieces of hate-mail, that doesn't mean 10,000 people don't like you, that means one obsessed idiot wrote 10,000 hate-mails. This is utterly disproportionate to their number and ruining it for the rest of us. Second, even if everyone were well-intentioned...this is a TV show viewed by tens of thousands of people. Odds are...the overwhelming number of questions directed at cast & crew are generic, overlapping, and simply shallow questions: endless questioning of "do you enjoy working on the show?" (of course they do!). In contrast, a wiki provides the opportunity to 1 - weed out and prevent harassment by providing a safe environment for questions, and 2 - Administrators can act as a filter to only put forward significant questions relating to "lore". That being said, questions should focus more on clarification of solid facts, not opinions. Thus "is Theon supposed to be bad" is an utterly subjective question which has no realistic hope of a solid answer. In contrast, "is the Grand Maester considered the head of the Order of Maesters, or is the Conclave of Archmaesters the leader?" is an objective question with a potential fact-based answer. Unfortunately, we have no means of contacting the writing staff at present. And remember: guys, the writing staff does more to "create" Game of Thrones and know more about it than the actors do. Some of the actors research their own characters very well, but fundamentally, the words they speak and actions they perform are penned by the writers. At any rate, the thought occurred that, much like a "cargo cult", a good way to attract writers to answer our questions is to make an actual list of questions. Good, fact-based questions, on a "if you build it, they will come" principle. The best way to let the writers know we have fact-based questions about changes in adaptation is to have an actual list of legitimate questions....as opposed to begging them to do Q&A; they'd shrug us off as "more fans who want to ask why Tyrion is so funny". The idea is that the Admins will filter questions that go onto this list. :I have left a message for Bryan Cogman asking him to stop by. Whether he does or not is another question. I imagine he's quite busy working on the show :) --Werthead (talk) 15:14, March 31, 2013 (UTC) =Questions about "lore" resulting from changes in adaptation, and their repercussions for the "TV-continuity"= Geography from The Lands of Ice and Fire Season 1 didn't have a map of anything east of the Free Cities. Season 2's HBO Viewer's Guide then showed an expanded worldmap of all of Essos east of the Free Cities to Vaes Dothraki in the northeast and Qarth in the southeast. However, between Seasons 2 and 3, the book-canon official mapbook The Lands of Ice and Fire was released, ship shows new maps of everything going east to Asshai. More importantly, the Jade Sea has been considerably changed, so it's northern shore is roughly at the same latitude as Qarth (thus making Bayasabhad and Shamyran landlocked now). Will these be the new official map locations for the TV continuity as well?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:25, March 20, 2013 (UTC) :Answered now: the Season 3 Viewer's Guide continues to use the Season 2 world map. We can assume that canonically, Essos looks different in the TV show to the books.--Werthead (talk) 12:15, April 1, 2013 (UTC) :They didn't update it for Season 3, but does this mean the geography in the show is officially different? Or that they just haven't gotten around to updating their maps?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:34, July 23, 2013 (UTC) Aging up the characters We’ve been trying to make an accurate Timeline for the TV continuity, taking into account the added two years between Robert’s Rebellion and the death of Jon Arryn (so that Robert’s Rebellion was 17 years ago, not 15 years as in the books). In which case, when exactly did those extra two years happen? Because certain events which happened during Robert’s reign get moved around a bit. The Greyjoy Rebellion was nine years before the beginning in the books, and I believe that’s the same in the TV series. In which case, do we insert those extras two years earlier in Robert’s reign? And there are other little things such as changing the amount of time the Targaryens lived with Illyrio Mopatis from six months to over a year. Many questions resulting from aging up the characters: in the first episode, Sansa states that she is 13 and Bran that he is 10, which is aged up two years from the TV show. Just as HBO made an official on-set pronunciation guide for Season 1, do you have a chart of what all of the character ages are? Also, has the legal age of adulthood in the Seven Kingdoms been changed for the TV series? In the books, it was 16 years old, and Samwell Tarly’s father disinherited him on his 15th nameday, as he was approaching the age of adulthood. However, in “Cripples, Bastards and Broken Things”, this was changed so that Sam now says his father disinherited him on his 18th nameday; so was the age of adulthood moved up to 18 in the TV-continuity, to match the age of the actors?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) Joffrey's age Joffrey is stated to be 17 years old in the TV series at the time of the Battle of the Blackwater, as stated in "The Prince of Winterfell". Most of the younger characters in the TV series were aged-up by about two years compared to their book counterparts (i.e. Sansa states that she is 13 years old in the first episode of Season 1, but is 11 in the first novel). Making Joffrey 17 years old in the TV series drastically increases his age relative to the other characters, however, as he is stated to be only 13 years old during the Battle of the Blackwater in the novels (the Tournament he holds in the beginning of book/Season 2 is to celebrate his nameday). This would make TV-Joffrey 16 years old in Season 1, which is stated to be 17 years after Robert and Cersei were married at the end of Robert's Rebellion (which was increased from 15 years ago in the TV series). Cersei also states that she became pregnant with a son by Robert at the very beginning of her marriage who died in infancy. Assuming that Cersei's first son died even a few days after birth, this requires a nine month pregnancy, plus another nine month pregnancy before Joffrey was born (assuming she became pregnant quite soon after her first son died), meaning Joffrey could have been born no earlier than sixteen and a half years before the beginning of the narrative - drastically increasing Joffrey's age to sixteen years old in Season 1 strains the plausibility of this timetable: was drastically increasing his age by FOUR years instead of two like the other characters a dialogue error in "The Prince of Winterfell", in order to make a forced comparison between Joffrey and how Jaime was such a skilled warrior at seventeen that he became the youngest man ever to join the Kingsguard.?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:34, July 23, 2013 (UTC) Margaery Tyrell and family Unrelated to this aging-up is that Natalie Dormer was cast as Margaery Tyrell on the strength of her audition, despite the fact that she’s slightly older than book-Margaery (a decision I fully support, as I jumped out of my socks at hearing that Anne Boleyn would play Margaery Tyrell). In the books, Robb and Margaery are the same age, but in the TV series, Natalie is four years older than actor Richard Madden. Is Margaery also officially four years older in the TV series? (if there is indeed a timeline and chart of character ages, specifically how old is Margaery?) The point is, Dormer is also four years older than Finn Jones (Loras Tyrell); while in the books, Margaery was actually a year younger than Loras, and the fourth youngest out of the four Tyrell siblings after her three brothers. So in the TV-continuity, is the age difference just taken with a wink and a grin, or is Margaery now officially older than Loras, making her the third Tyrell sibling and Loras the fourth? If so, would this even change much, given that they’re fairly close in age and it’s a patriarchal society in which Loras is in line of succession ahead of Margaery anyway? (Loras would still keep his three-roses personal sigil as he’s still a third son). If you think about it, shifting who is the older and who is the younger sibling might affect the character dynamic in how Dormer and Jones play their roles. There’s been some fan chatter that Willas and Garlan Tyrell might be cut from the TV continuity to streamline it; I don’t really think this is necessary, as they’re really “mentioned-only” characters in the books anyway – you just need them to mention Willas, not cast another character to clutter things. Some have gone so far as to speculate that Loras would be the *only* Tyrell son, which would complicate things considerably. Can anyone go on record to debunk this?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) :Alright, now we're really worried Willas and Garlan were cut, because in "Kissed by Fire" Tywin acts as if Loras is "the" Tyrell heir.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:13, April 29, 2013 (UTC) Answered: Bryan Cogman said in interviews that Margaery is indeed older than Loras in the TV continuity. He also said that for the moment, Willas and Garlan are in a limbo-state, much as Shireen was during Season 2, during which they aren't sure if they'll be included later. They stressed Loras as "the heir of Highgarden" to such a degree that I don't think that can be revised, but I hold out hope that later seasons will retroactively establish Willas and Garlan as Loras' younger brothers.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:36, July 23, 2013 (UTC) Robb Stark and repercussions from not splitting up his army for Whispering Wood Changes were made to the disposition of Robb Stark’s army in the War of the Five Kings, removing the story of his eastern army-group in Seasons 1 and 2. These have major repercussions. In the books, the Northern forces are divided into two army-groups, one in the west commanded by Robb Stark (about 5,000 cavalry), and one in the east commanded by Roose Bolton (with about 16,000 infantry). So Bolton had three times as many “men” but Robb’s force was entirely cavalry while Bolton’s was infantry, so let’s call it even and say that Robb and Roose each roughly commanded “half” of the Northern army. The Battle of Green Fork was indeed, a faint, but instead of sending a force of only 2,000 men which was annihilated (as in the TV version), Bolton’s command consisted of 16,000 men. While Bolton certainly lost men, the whole point of the battle was just to distract Tywin’s army-group, and when the battle appeared lost Bolton withdrew in good order. This allowed Robb Stark’s half of the army, numbering about 5,000 cavalry, to attack Jaime Lannister’s army-group besieging Riverrun. The Northern forces were of course bolstered by four thousand Frey levies on their way south (16 minus 4 equals 12 thousand specifically Northern infantry), which is something like 10% of the forces of the Riverlands. After Robb is declared king, the forces of House Tully and the Riverlords join him (out of gratitude and because he’s Hoster Tully’s grandson). This may have added another 30-40,000 men to Robb’s faction, albeit most of the Riverlands armies stay in the Riverlands to fight Tywin’s army-group. Meanwhile, Robb takes his cavalry to invade the Westerlands, resulting in Oxcross. With Tywin retreating south, Bolton’s half of the Northern army advances south, ultimately capturing Harrenhal. Anyway, the TV series simplified Bolton’s army-group to just 2,000 men sent to Green Fork as a feint and completely exterminated (narratively, this might have gotten too cluttered at the end of Season 1). Indeed, at the beginning of Season 2, we see that Bolton is actually still with Robb, and remains with him all season. The problem, of course, is that this change means that instead of dividing the Northern forces roughly in half, so Robb had 5,000 cavalry at Whispering Wood, he now has the bulk of the army at 18,000 (+4,000 Freys), and only lost a screener force of two thousand at Greek Fork. Jaime Lannister’s army-group in the books was 15,000 strong (of which 3,000 were cavalry); thus the drama at Whispering Wood is that Robb was outnumbered “three-to-one” but through brilliant tactics was able to take Jaime’s army-group by surprise an annihilate it. Instead of dividing Robb’s army in half (roughly), now the bulk of the army is with Robb at Whispering Wood, (roughly) doubling his forces. Now, in the TV version, Tywin explicitly tells Jaime that the standing Lannister armies in the Riverlands number 60,000, and he orders Jaime to talk “half” – 30,000 – to besiege Riverrun. My functional guess is that to maintain the drama of “Robb is outnumbered two or three to one” at Whispering Wood, the TV version doubled the size of the Lannister army from 15,000 to 30,000, to make it seem like more of a threat to Robb’s 18-22,000 strong army. All of this resulted from removing the eastern army group under Roose Bolton’s command, to simplify the story in late Season 1. The problem is….the Westerlands cannot possibly sustain an army that large. An average-sized “kingdom” in Westeros can field 30-40,000 men – such as the Vale or Westerlands. The North has a smaller population (also it’s more spread out and more difficult to rally armies in a hurry when they call the bannermen), so it’s army is around 20,000 men. Dorne is in the 10,000 range, and the Iron Islands are also lightly populated. The Reach, in contrast, is stated to be able to raise almost twice as many soldiers as any other kingdom, due to its fertile lands and large population: in the area of 60,000 men. When the standing army of the Westerlands was doubled to 60,000 in the TV series, this wasn’t proportionately increased for the other kingdoms relative to the Westerlands. When the Tyrells joined the Lannisters in the books, it effectively tripled the size of the armies at their disposal (more like increased by a factor of 4 to 5, when you consider the smaller size of the Lannister army after the severe losses it took from Robb Stark). The TV series changed this so the Westerlands can now, apparently, raise an army as large as that of the Reach, lessening the impact of House Tyrell siding with the Lannisters. How can we possibly hope to reconcile this numerical discrepancy? If you change one thing, you change everything. Butterfly effect.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) Battle of Stone Mill Is the Battle of Stone Mill the same thing as the Battle of the Fords in the books? In the books it was more of a "campaign" attacking multiple points along the river at once, but the main thrust was at Stone Mill (made sense to give it a more distinct name). The TV series only describes it as Edmure attacking Gregor Clegane (instead of Gregor attacking the fords) - was Gregor commanding the vanguard of the main Lannister army under Tywin, in which case Tywin's overall army was involved, or was this demoted to a much smaller, regional engagement? You see, the real problem is...did the "Battle of Stone Mill" happen before or after the Battle of the Blackwater? If it happened before, it takes the place of the Battle of the Fords; the point being that the Lannister army was pent up in the Riverlands as a result when the whole idea was to lure them into the Westerlands and away from King's Landing....but if it took place after Blackwater, then it had little overeall impact on the entire war (I note that King John used the same tactic during his final confrontation with King Philip II; he burned-out France-allied Brittany to try to lure the Capetian King away from Normandy...though the trick didn't work, Philip II was smart enough not to take the bait).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:56, July 23, 2013 (UTC) Cutting King Jaehaerys II Targaryen? In the TV series, In Season 1 episode 9, "Baelor", Maester Aemon states that "My father was Maekar, the First of his Name. My brother Aegon reigned after him, when I had refused the throne, and he was followed by his son Aerys, whom they called the Mad King." -- Thus it seems that the TV-continuity has omitted Jaehaerys II (who was sickly and ruled only a few short years, but ruled well in those years)...apparently to simplify the relationship between Aemon, Aerys II, and Daenery. Has Jaehaerys II been officially removed? How was the decision made to remove him? What about the wider ramifications of this? Particularly for the Tales Dunk and Egg prequels (now being discussed as an HBO project!), Jaehaerys was Egg’s son (Egg being Aegon V), and removing him would make Egg the father of the Mad King. And Aerys was insane due to his incestuous parentage, while Aegon V apparently married for love outside of the family (though of course, it was compound generations of 300 years of inbreeding). Moreover, this affects how the TV-continuity will establish the relationship between the Targaryens and Baratheons. In the books, Jaehaerys' sister Rhaelle was the mother of Steffon Baratheon, father of the three Baratheon brothers (Robert, Stannis, Renly). Robert's claim to the throne (and by extension, Stannis and Renly's) was based on this "bit of dragon-blood". Is this now moved around so that Rhaelle is a sister of Aegon V? (in place of Rhae and Daella? Or perhaps alongside them?)....OR, can the TV series later retcon this and just say that Aegon meant to say "grandson" and as a 100 year old man angrily recounting the fall of his House, it was just a slip of the tongue?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) :Cogman confirmed in another interview on WinterIsComing.net that Jaehaerys II is indeed cut in the TV continuity, and Aegon V (Egg) is Aerys II's father (indeed, I'm the one who submitted the question he answered). Well we know the change was made, but why was it made? And more importantly, how then did the Baratheons intermarry with the Targaryens?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:14, April 29, 2013 (UTC) Cersei and Robert's first black-haired child, and namedays In Season 1, Cersei Lannister says her firstborn baby, who died of a fever, was a black-haired son who was her only biological child with Robert Baratheon. Cersei had no child with Robert in the books, not even a stillbirth, and indeed she says she once had an abortion rather than have Robert’s child. At first, we thought she was just lying to Catelyn, but later in Season 1 she speaks about “when we lost our first boy” to Robert, which indicates that this actually happened. How and why was this change made? Further, even when speaking with Robert she doesn't mention the child's name: people in the Seven Kingdoms don’t have “birthdays”, they have “namedays” – functionally equivalent to birthdays because babies are named on the day they are born (the only exception in Westeros to this are the wildlings, who due to high infant mortality north of the Wall, don’t name their babies until they reach two years of age). This being the case, did Cersei and Robert’s baby never receive an official name, because it did not survive long enough for the naming ceremony/baptism a few hours later? Did GRRM come up with a name for it in the TV continuity? A royal child is kind of important, even if it died in infancy.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) Westeros and the Age of a Hundred Kingdoms The HBO Viewer’s Guide, and to an extent the Complete Guide, imply that there always were “Seven Kingdoms” in Westeros. In the books, it’s explained that their used to be hundreds of tiny kingdoms in Westeros, in which every local lord called himself a king; this is why the Andals were able to successfully conquer the disunited First Men. Then again we do have legends of characters like Bran the Builder being “King in the North” in the books…even though the books later say that the Boltons were their own separate kingdom who didn’t swear fealty to the Starks until only a thousand years ago. Martin calls this era of Westerosi history, between the Andal Invasion and the Targaryen Conquest, “the Age of a Hundred Kingdoms” (from excerpts of World of Ice and Fire that we’ve seen…maybe the era began at the end of the War for the Dawn). At any rate, even in the books, characters might loosely refer to the Starks as “King in the North” long before the North was united under one king (I suspect they were loose over-kings of a confederation of minor kings, sort of like how Irish over-kings would unite the numerous tiny kingdoms in Ireland to respond to the threat of Viking attacks). But the ancillary materials for the TV series such as the HBO Viewer’s Guide or Complete Guide simply state that “the Andals founded Seven Kingdoms in Westeros” – when in the books, the “seven kingdoms” aggregated over many thousands of years. Is this *officially* different in the TV series continuity? That there always were Seven Kingdoms, even six thousand years ago in the immediate aftermath of the Andal Invasion? Because in the books, a unified “Kingdom of the Reach” did exist, but it may have predated the Targaryen Conquest by only a few centuries. We’ve been debating this quite a bit.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) Jaime Lannister and dyslexia In Season 2 it was mentioned that Jaime Lannister has a dyslexia-like condition. This hasn’t been mentioned in the books yet; is it something George R.R. Martin mentioned to the writers which was going to be mentioned in a future book? Or, was it created by the writers, who then got approval from Martin? (in which case, this doesn’t reflect the books).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) Lordsport and "Red Harbor" In Season 2, Yara teases Theon at Pyke that he was only given one ship, docked in Lordsport, by saying that she’s commanding so many ships that they couldn’t fit there and had to dock at the larger port of “Red Harbor” – Lordsport is the largest port on Pyke in the books, and there’s never been mention of a “Red Harbor” – so is there now officially a new primary port for Pyke island, or was Yara just teasing him?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) Rakharo and Kovarro How were Rakharo and Kovarro developed for the TV show? They do seem based on Jhago and Rakharo from the books, but their roles were reversed (book-Rakharo is older and good with a sword, Jhago with a whip). We assumed that Jhago was simply renamed “Kovarro” because it sounded to similar to Khal Jhaqo, one of Drogo’s kos who splits off and forms his own khalsar, becoming a major enemy to Daenerys.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) Barristan and the Small Council Why wasn’t Barristan Selmy shown as a member of the Small Council in the TV series? The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard has a seat on the council in the books. Was this simply due to constraints of time and budget in bringing the actor there (or because it would have complicated the drama of Ned and Robert’s council scenes)? Is the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard still an official member of the Small Council in the books? (and thus it can be said that “Selmy sat on Robert’s Small Council?")--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) :Ah, I see what you did there. "Kissed by Fire" lampshades this by having dialogue between Barristan and Jorah, directly pointing out that the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard does sit on the Small Council. Barristan explains that Robert didn't like having him give strategic advice because he used to serve the Targaryens (but he is okay with him guarding the king himself?...well, Barristan might not have been relied on for when they were making plans to assassinate Viserys and Daenerys, as he objected in the books) -- though Barristan says he didn't mind because he hates politics. The explanation fits well enough for me. :The question now is, at what point was this planned out? I have the lingering suspicion that even before Season 1 was filming, when the writers were breaking down the basic story arcs season by season, it was decided to do away with the "Arstan Whitebeard" reveal - which really wouldn't have worked well in a visual medium (sort of like Merry actually recognizing Eowyn through her disguise in the movie version of Return of the King). So you had to have some reason that Barristan wouldn't be present at the Small Council meetings where he would learn that Jorah was spying for Varys. So was this fix thought up in Season 3, or planned from early on? (the writers intentionally left Barristan out of Season 1 Small Council scenes because they consciously knew it wouldn't fit well into Season 3, as the plan was to reveal Barristan's identity immediately.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:19, April 29, 2013 (UTC) Tarly at Summerhall When Robert is discussing the Battle of Summerhall with Barristan Selmy, he says that his first kill was a boy from House Tarly in the battle. Some have interpreted this as that there were “elements of House Tarly” in the battle, even though Tarly and other Reach houses only arrived for the later Battle of Ashford; in which case, this could have just been one random Tarly member who happened to be in the area at the time, not a “force” of House Tarly?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) :Indeed I believe we should treat it as such. Its possible the writers messed up but Summerhall and Ashford have been correctly introduced in TV continuity in the bluray extras.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:18, March 17, 2013 (UTC) Lord Redwyne We’ve been debating this: when Varys and Littlefinger are sparing, Varys makes an off-hand comment about “Lord Redwyne prefers his boys especially young” – was this referring to Lord Paxter Redwyne, head of House Redwyne, or just some minor cousin? (seeing as Paxter doesn’t live in King’s Landing to even use Littlefinger’s brothels). There’s been no indication in the books that Paxter is a homosexual or a pedophile. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) :They refer to him as Lord, not as Ser. Yes, in the books Lord Paxter arrives to KL with the Tyrell host, but that doesn't mean that he couldn't have been around the capital by Season 1 in TV!Universe.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:17, March 17, 2013 (UTC) Updated Pronuciation Guide? Is there an on-set official pronunciation guide for later seasons, as there was for Season 1? We’re really interested in seeing those, they help immensely.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) Old Nan Just to confirm this: due to the death of the actress before Season 1 even premiered (but after all of her scenes were finished), it has been functionally implied that Old Nan just died “off screen” in the break between Seasons 1 and 2, due to old age? It hasn’t been acknowledged in dialogue so far.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) Lorath and Shae It's been explained that Shae was changed in Season 1 to be "from the Free Cities" to explain the actress’ accent. But in Season 2, Shae was stated to be from Lorath. Why was specifically Lorath selected? Great line in the Complete Guide with Jorah not being able to remember anything noteworthy about Lorath: has Martin mentioned anything? If Lorath is so boring, why was it decided upon as Shae’s origin?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) :We would need official confirmation, but I remember the speculation being that since both Jaqen H'ghar and Shae are played by German actors and Jaqen being from Lorath is prominently mentioned in the books (although that might not be his true origin), the decision was made to make Lorath the place in the world where people had German accents (a bit like how people from the North have Sheffield/Yorkshire accents) and thus Shae is from there as well.--Werthead (talk) 12:15, April 1, 2013 (UTC) ::Well...if you check the History tab on the "Lorath" article, that's because I'm the one that started that speculation that German accents come from Lorath...--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:53, April 1, 2013 (UTC) Sansa and Septa Mordane Why the heck is Sansa acting so out of character and bitter towards Septa Mordane in “A Golden Crown”? This wasn’t in the books. The functional assumption was that just as Sansa is copying Cersei’s hairstyle, she’s impressionable and imitating how Cersei is mean to her servants. I take issue with Jane Espenson's ability to write characters on this show, and I'm glad she only got to work on it for one episode. "Oh look at me, I'm a female writer!" -- so is Vanessa Taylor, the difference is that Taylor didn't work on Buffy and Firefly so she doesn't have a permanent open chair at Hall H of San Diego Comic-Con.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) Asha Greyjoy At what point was it realized that “Asha Greyjoy” sounds like “Osha the wildling”? Asha Greyjoy is a far more important character, even a POV narrator in later books. Surely, shouldn’t the secondary wildling character have been renamed instead?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) :Osha appears first.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:19, March 17, 2013 (UTC) ::...Darn you.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:54, July 23, 2013 (UTC) Elmarr vs Waldron Frey In the books, Arya was proxy-arranged to marry Elmarr Frey as part of the deal to get House Frey’s support, but in the TV series, the name was changed to “Waldron Frey” – why was this?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) Frey girls in "The Rains of Castamere" When Robb Stark arrives at the Twins in "The Rains of Castamere" for his uncle Edmure Tully to enter into a marriage-alliance with House Frey, Lord Walder Frey insists that he apologize to his many gathered daughters and grand-daughters, who might have married Robb if he hadn't broken his promised marriage-alliance to House Frey. Some of the Frey girls in this scene have names (presented in on-screen dialogue) which do not match any of the numerous minor Frey daughters and grand-daughters from the books: Arwaya Frey, Derwa Frey, Waldra Frey, Janeya Frey, Neyela Frey, and Freya Frey. A "Walda Frey" is also presented in this scene as Lord Walder's daughter: many of his children try to curry favor with him by naming their own children "Walder" or "Walda" (which he finds annoying), thus Lord Walder has numerous granddaughters named "Walda", but no daughter named "Walda". Meanwhile, the other Frey girls in this scene actually do use names from the books, and generally match their descriptions: Serra Frey, Sarra Frey, Marianne Frey, Merry Frey, and Shirei Frey. Ultimately, even in the books these girls are all minor characters of whom little is known other than the name, genealogy, and sometimes a general physical description. Functionally it makes little difference that "Shirei Frey" used the same name as the books, instead of an invented name such as "Arwaya", but still...why did the TV series invent new names instead of just using established ones from the books? This makes our Frey Family Tree even more of a jumbled mess.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:01, July 23, 2013 (UTC) Cleos Frey Why was the decision made to make “Cleos Frey” into “Alton Lannister”? We assumed it was because you didn’t want to confuse the TV-first audience about whose side he was on, by explaining that while House Frey officially declared for Robb when the war broke out, that a few Frey relatives sided with the Lannisters? (as Cleos’ mother is actually Tywin’s sister, making him half-Lannister too). This being the case, where the heck do we fit "Cleos Frey" into the increasingly jumbled Frey family tree? --The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) Gendry in Season 3, and Robert's other bastards Gendry's storyline got condensed with Edric Storm's in Season 3 (I feel this actually worked out fairly well and saved a great deal of time, better to use an established character than one out of the blue). Gendry was even brought before Stannis who admitted that Gendry was Robert's bastard (as Gendry so closely resembles Robert that it is blatantly obvious to anyone who knew Robert that he is Robert's son). Does Stannis' meeting with Gendry mean that Gendry has been "acknowledged" and now has the right to use a bastard surname? In which case, would he use "Storm" for the Stormlands are "Waters" for the Crownlands? Or, more probably, is it that Stannis admitted that he was Robert's bastard, but he didn't formally "Acknowledge" him (capital A) in a legal sense? While we're on the subject, do Edric Storm and Mya Stone, the only other absolutely confirmed surviving bastards of Robert, exist in the TV version or have they been officially removed? In which case, is Gendry officially the only bastard of Robert still alive in the TV continuity? Or are they sort of in a "limbo state" such as Shireen was during Season 2, in that you'd like to fit in Edric or Mya done the line but don't know right now if you'll be able to? Also, Mhaegen, the mother of Barra, was killed in the books trying to defend her daughter; she wasn't explicitly shown to die in the TV series. Is Mhaegen dead in the TV continuity? Also, was Barra named for "Baratheon"?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:49, July 23, 2013 (UTC) =General questions about the narrative’s “lore”, unchanged from the books= Grand Maester Is the Grand Maester the “head” of the Order of Maesters? Or is the Conclave of Archmaesters the governing body, with no one leader? In which case, is the Grand Maester “just” the Maester assigned to the Red Keep and the king? But the Order of Maesters has been around for thousands of years, in which case, was there even a Grand Maester before the Targaryen Conquest? Our functional assumption was that the Grand Maester was the *nominal* head of the Order, but in practice, by his very nature he’s located in a separate city from Oldtown, so the actual power is with the conclave?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) Surnames Why is it that some of the smallfolk have surnames? Don’t only noble Houses have surnames (their House name)? Why does innkeeper Masha Heddle have a surname? While we’re on the subject, why does Brienne of Tarth style herself “of Tarth” instead of “Brienne Tarth”?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) Greyjoys in the War of the Usurper Did the Iron Islands fight in any capacity in Robert’s Rebellion? Or was House Greyjoy neutral, biding its time and waiting for the opportunity to launch the Greyjoy Rebellion?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) Lord of Light religion What is the origin and center of the Lord of Light religion? Does it come from Asshai? People within the world must have some general idea of where it began (it's not native to the Free Cities is it?) Also, Stannis and Selyse are devout followers of the Lord of Light religion. Did Shireen convert as well? What is her relationship with the Lord of Light religion? Did she grow up with it? Or are her parents forcibly making her stop all of the Faith of the Seven worship she used to believe in to switch to the Lord of Light religion?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) The Old Gods south of the Neck Exactly how many families south of the Neck still follow the Old Gods? Are the Blackwoods the only “major” House? I assume on a personal level there might be Old Gods worshipers anywhere, but focusing on major Houses. By which I mean, on the level of the Umbers, Dustins, and Florents; the major dozen or so nobles in each kingdom which are just below Great House (Stark, Lannister) but above “landed knights”. Are the Blackwoods the only major house? Are there holdout First Men in corners of the Red Mountains of Dorne that might still practice it? Are there any worshipers in the Iron Islands? I doubt that, as even the Faith of the Seven is a minority religion there.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) Renly Baratheon and Cadet Branches Did Renly even bother forming a cadet branch of House Baratheon, or what? I would assume that claiming inheritance ahead of Stannis, breaking all the rules, he didn’t try to formally create a cadet branch. When a cadet branch of a noble House is formed, does it keep the motto of the original? Particularly, does Stannis continue to use “Ours is the Fury”? He changed his sigil. However, later books show that he’s using the generic gold and black Baratheon banners as well. Is this a case of using his own “personal” sigil, instead of inventing a new one? Does Stannis think he’s inventing a new House the way the Karstarks separated from the Starks? Because at the same time, he says he’s the only remaining Baratheon (after Renly died).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) Surviving Baratheon cousins It is difficult to completely eradicate a major ruling family that’s been around for hundreds of years. Do the Baratheons have any cousins which might take up the claim if Stannis and Shireen die? It does not appear that Steffon (Robert’s father) had any distant relations).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) :Houses Bolling and Wensington may be cadet branches of either Baratheons or Durrandons. Bollings maybe were founded by a bastard.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:21, March 17, 2013 (UTC) ::Due to their similar heraldry?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:42, July 23, 2013 (UTC) Are the Greyjoys "Lords Paramount"? Is the head of House Greyjoy a “Lord Paramount” like other Great Houses in the realm? They style themselves “Lord Reaper of Pyke” (and other grandiose titles). Dorne is officially slightly different from the other kingdoms in that they’re not “Lords Paramount” but retain the title of Prince, which has some minor differences such as equal primogeniture. A king can dismiss a Lord Paramount at will, but can they dismiss a Prince of Dorne? (also, back when they were independent, was it called the “Principality of Dorne” or “Princedom of Dorne”?) The Greyjoys never call themselves “Lord Paramount” but then again the books only really show Balon after he declared himself king again. So is Dorne truly unique in its ruling title, or are the Greyjoys also unique? Or are the Greyjoys also Lords Paramount? Or, as I suspect, is it that the Greyjoys insisted on a bunch of grandiose titles (Lord Reaper, Lord of the Salt Seas, etc.) but these are only nominal and meaningless differences, and they are in fact functionally equivalent to Lords Paramount?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) Views of religions besides the Seven towards homosexuality What are the specific views of each major religion towards homosexuality? The Faith of the Seven considers it a sin (or seems to; is that official?). But the Old Gods of the Forest don’t have many “rules” as such. Would a Northerner like Eddard Stark particularly mind if he knew Renly was gay? Due to their lack of strict rules under the Old Gods, are people openly gay in the North as they are in Dorne? Because Hother “Whoresbane” Umber, an elderly and fierce warrior of House Umber, is rumored to be a homosexual (the whore he killed in Oldtown is said to have been a male prostitute) – but only whispered outside of his presence, which would seem to imply that there is some sort of stigma against that.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) Why did King Robert pardon Varys? Officially, why would Robert pardon a man as dangerous as Varys, much less keep the old Targaryen spymaster on as his new one? Pycelle, at least, was a Lannister agent and helped them take the capital. But we know Varys is a secret Targaryen loyalist (even the TV series shows this); was it just because Varys was incredibly good at his job? Or did he use blackmail or something?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) Master of Laws and the City Watch In both the books and TV series, at the Small Council Renly threatens Janos Slynt that he will be fired if he can’t do his job and maintain order in the city. Does this mean that the Commander of the Gold Cloaks is directly answerable to the Master of Laws? That is, the Master of Laws controls the Gold Cloaks (in his “branch of government”); or was Renly just more loosely threatening Janos, i.e. “we, the Small Council and the king, might decide to have you replaced” and this had nothing to do with the fact that Renly himself is Master of Laws?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) Coinage set props We’ve been interested in the worldbuilding associated with Currency in the TV series: so far dialogue has established the Gold Dragon and Copper Penny, though as yet no Silver Stags or other coins. Do the propmasters actually make minted prop-coins with designs on them? We’ve never been able to see a coin close enough to tell if they do. It would make an interesting “Making Game of Thrones” blog post just to see close-up images of what the designs on prop coins look like.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:39, March 17, 2013 (UTC) Crackclaw Point This is a silly question, but I myself am from the New York area, and GRRM is from this region of the country (New Jersey). Is Crackclaw Point inspired by the Pine Barrens of southern New Jersey? We have Pine Barrens out on LI as well. It just struck me as more than coincidence: both are regions surprisingly near a major city which are filled with dense forests, hills, and bogs, with fiercely independent hillybilly types who resist outside control.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:41, July 23, 2013 (UTC) References